- read chapters 1 & 2
- post 1 question or comment -- first come, first served (no duplications and that means you'll have to read through all the posts)
- respond to at least 3 postings -- to a question, comment or response to your post(s)
- think "professional development"
- (simply) agreeing or disagreeing does not a post make
- have fun
- staff will vote and be awarded for "best post" at the next session
I have been frustrated with the grading system now that my own children are in middle school and hight school. One of my children does very well. I know her strengths and weaknesses. The grading system works for her. On the other hand, I am unclear about how my son actually does in school. I go to his conferences, they hand me his grades and tell me he is doing "fine." I want them to show me samples of his work, show me what he does well, and also samples of where he needs improvement. They only have statistics for me. This goes along with our reading on perspective 4:grading is inescapable. I think many parents ask the question, "how can I help my child improve their grade?" So maybe our grading system could basically stay the same but after each grade, that wasn't an "A" perhaps the teacher must list at least one idea or area the student could work on. Now I am trying to think how I could apply this same idea to my own Kdg report card. If they get an average grade in writing I could state the example that they forget to put spaces between their words way too often. Or in Math: writing numbers, I could say they write the number 6 backwards too often. Perhaps using more comments would make the grades seem less arbitrary. Would this be more work? Certainly. But as a parent, I know I would appreciate this information.
ReplyDeleteLooking at Case Study 5 the packing of the parachute. Let me just say the first thing I would do is find a new hobby! If I had to go I would need more info. At what point of this graph am I going to jump? In the beginning I would have student one pack the chute. If I was going towards the end of this I would have student 3 pack the chute. These case studies are obvious in showing what the authors believe. As with which mechanic would be hired, the grading showed the misgivings the authors have in traditional grading. I am still not convinced that ALL grading is bad and that maybe it just needs to be revamped.
ReplyDeleteCASE STUDY 6 This case study reminds me of a portion of our discussion on Feb. 25th. There is a variation in the grading scales within our own walls, much like the different schools in this example. I don't necessarily see this as a negative as each teacher needs to develop the expectations for their students and feel comfortable using and explaining to students and their parents the scale they use. College entrance/scholarships were also a concern for our group, but I think it's difficult for colleges to find out what a GPA really means. Not only do the classes the students take vary and different instructors for the same courses cause discrepancies, but some averages are based on a 4.0 scale while others may be based on a 4.3-4.7 scale. Fortunately there are other factors that are taken into consideration as well when applying for scholarships at many universities.
ReplyDeleteFortunately (and unfortunately) most of the assessments that accompany the basals at the elementary level come in the form of multiple choice formats. This really leaves no room to really tell if a student has mastered a particular concept or not. Many students tend to "guess" at answers when they are unsure, which leaves them with a 25% chance of getting the question correct. Does this tell me that the student knows the concept, yes, however do I know if they really do? Good guesses lead to good grades, however does the student truly deserve a good grade for guessing good? Grades should be measured on meeting/mastering a standard, not the performance on an assessments. In order for grades to reflect standards directly and not just by chance, grades must be based directly on the standards.
ReplyDeleteComment on Brenda's post: Could it only be as simple as going to a universal grading scale, the same at both the college and K-12 level? I think many discrepancies could be eliminated and it would make transferring schools and colleges, especially out of state, much easier. There would be no questions as to what was expected of the student. The fairness would be equal for those applying for scholarships and determining GPAs.
ReplyDeleteA universal grading system would certainly have merit, but I'm not sure how simple the implementation of that would be. The states, Iowa in particular, have prided themselves on the local control of schools (whether that's good or bad is debatable). The federal government seems to be more interested in controlling what the schools do in recent years, so possibly your idea could be forthcoming.
ReplyDeleteI have a new hero and a new book on the way. After reading perspective one "Grading is not essential for learning" I thought perhaps I was misreading the text. I read through all seven and found that my initial reaction stayed constant even after reflection. I re-read number one with even greater interest in regard to my recent "experiment" in music history [no grades for a quarter... total immersion in a web-based wiki to foster intrinsic motivation {can't believe I just posted that on an education-based site for the faculty to read....I'm sure I've just breached several JMC protocols)] AND with obvious interest as a director of a co-curricular activity with no grades.
ReplyDeleteI am happy to report evidence of much deeper understanding of several Romantic-era composers and fascinating discussions on music composed during the 19th C in Mu History class. I am also delighted that I have yet another educator from which to draw inspiration: Alfie Kohn. His insights in this article led me to do an author search where I found some fascinating books, one of which will be here next week "What Does It Mean to Be Well-Educated: and more Essays on Standards, Grading, and Other Follies". I also found this amusing youtube video Afrie Kohn vs Dwight Schrute which I encourage you to view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59KY7ek8Rk
The most important segment of our text with regard to Kohn was that we must emphasize that our students are responsible for learning. The worth of what is learned is found in Kohn's 3 Cs of motivation: Content, Choice, and Collaboration. In the Chronicle of Higher Education, Kohn states: “It doesn’t matter how motivated students are; what matters is how students are motivated” – [“The Dangerous Myth of Grade Inflation"]
I am well aware that many of you will disagree quite mightily with me on this issue which is certainly understandable... after all, we have used grades for over 100 years.... oh wait... that's perspective four!!!!
Let's add fuel to the fire for Brenda and Katie... Not only do we not have uniform grading systems in place at EC, we have the option of adding the minus or plus to ease the pain of "not quite an A, but certainly better than a B" in place. Does a C (regardless of the numbers associated with it) really mean "average"? Is it possible to have a universal grading system? Is my interpretation of a student paper the same as Marci's? (I already know the answer... since I graded the MH papers COMPLETELY divergent from the HS English standard.) Is it only possible to have a universal grading system if we use questions that are not debatable i.e. T/F, multiple choice, etc.? How on earth do we decide how much weight to put on tests vs homework?
ReplyDeleteRosemary- I am totally with you on WHEN exactly are we asking the student to pack the parachute? When exactly do we give the parents the news that their child (student 3) , although making tremendous progress, is only achieving a C (exactly like child 1) because the quarter/semester grade is an accumulation of events over a period of time? For the record... I'm too old to parachute... but I'd go with #3.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59KY7ek8Rk
ReplyDeleteI watched the video Laura suggested. It certainly is thought provoking. I think it also fits in well with what we learned and discussed about Ron Clark's philosophies on Friday. I don't recall Mr. Clark mentioning anything about extrinsic rewards for good behavior or performance. I think it comes down to engagement of the student. Do they need and want to learn the things we are teaching them? If not, why not? I need to think about what can I do to raise the level of engagement in my classroom.
Comment to Laura's post
ReplyDeleteIs there a right answer to whether to grade or not? Each course in school is different and students each year are different as well. What works for one course might not be such a good idea for the other. I believe that for math subject grading is necessary.
Here is why:
students need to have a goal they want or must reach
grades motivate students to complete assignments
grades give an idea which students need more help and attention
grades also could indicate changes in student's life (sudden drop from A to C).
there are other reasons to grade which we listed during our meeting.
My experience #1
I had struggled with 7th grade grading system for 2.5 years: the topics are hard and many kids do not grasp the idea which results in many D's and F's. I was tired of staying after school to tutor those students (this year it would be a group of 10 students because students are very low) and I made a grading scale for 7th grade easier. Also, I started helping many of them on their homework assignments during my prep time.
I've notices that many students became more active in class and in getting help on homework because improving the grade became easier. This resulted in their better understanding of math concepts and higher test scores.
There are quite few students who would stop making an effort (as little as it is sometimes) if I would eliminate grading completely. Students need to have a goal they want (or must) to reach.
My experience #2
My advanced Algebra1 class is not graded. Any 8th grade students may participate. I have just 9 students - the top students of 8th grade. Some strong students who I expected to participate quit the 1st or 2nd day (even talk with parents didn't motivate these students). Would all of our 8th grade students make an effort in learning this course if we make it required but not graded?
I don't think so.
So, I think we need to grade, but reconsider what and how to do it.
Comment to Merrill
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of the skills report to parents about each student.
My son will go to kindergarten this year and at the round up we received a list of skills required. My son could not write his name, didn't know know our phone number and address. I never thought to teach my kid phone number and address (I didn't need to know these to go to 1st grade) Now we know and work at home on the required skills.
I like this idea and I will try to implement it on up coming conferences. My concern is the time it will take to prepare this info. I will not continue to do it if it takes too much time or it does not result in student improvement.
I'm a little confused. On page 58 the author says "credit should be granted only when students have mastered the critical learning goals." I guess I'm not sure how to do this or exactly what the author means by this. Help!!
ReplyDeleteI know I'm not supposed to say this but I agree with Lyua. Having skills listed for parents and students is extremely helpful. However, do we grade each skill seperatley? I know in 5th grade, in one quarter we cover a different skill each week in Reading. Would we have a grade on each skill on the report card? It also may be confusing for some parents to realize that their child hasn't mastered main idea and supporting details but has mastered cause and effect. How do we give overall grades for Reading or do we give M for mastered or N for needs improvement? I see both points of view so how do we come up with a universal or even district wide plan
ReplyDeleteI found case study #4 interesting (I would choose alternative B: use the final marks on each unit test).
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of giving multiple opportunities of displaying the skills required. It works well with the post Merrill made - reporting skills to parents. This way if parents/teacher work (or not) with a student on improving certain skills we could notice a result.
We all learn at different paces. Some students might fail the 1st quiz of solving equations but over time as student gets more practice, his/her performance level increases and will be reflected in the final grade. Many of our students don't get to show that they improved a particular skill.
This way of grading effectively displays learning over time using grades.
From Case number 7, I believe that those who teach the same grade (or course) in the same school should have the same grading scale. At times there are so many factors in grading and deciding what percentage to give to each of those factors is often hard to do. In the elementary, I often grade on test/quizzes and homework. It sure would be nice if there could be a perfect grading plan.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Kari's post, I also wonder how we should be grading in reading. Like in 5th grade, fourth grade also does a different skill in reading every week. It would be very hard to give a grade for every skill that is taught. However, that is exactly what we're asking our students to learn each week. I too would like to be able to come up with a universal grading system that we could use in the elementary.
ReplyDeleteI have watched the movie suggested in the earlier posts.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with few thing.
Some students might be off task not because we teach something they are not interested but how we teach it.
I do not like history and to know history facts I have to memorize them even if it is 2 sentences. Often during my school years I memorized paragraphs of history and geography to get a grade to pass. Does it mean I should not have studied these subjects just because they didn't interest me and I believed I would never use the information such as "when the 2nd world war started" or "when the slavery ended in Kyev Russ"?
All this helped me to develop my memory, understanding of my nation's history and culture.
In case study 3, the grading is based on both the practical and the theory. I prefer Scenario 2 or 3 grading. The student that understands how to do the work (practical) but not the test (theory) might just have trouble taking tests, but can do the work. In vocational education, this is usually the case. In my experience, the longer the student does the work, the more they understand, and after a while, would be able to explain the theory.
ReplyDeleteWould you agree w/ this Iowa high school student's assessment of grading?
ReplyDelete"Most grading at the high school level is more reflective of responsibility (just handing things in) and not on whether the student has truly mastered the content."
There are a lot of issues embedded in this short sentence. For example…
1. What does ‘true mastery of content’ mean (or look like) for secondary students?
2. Does high school grading really get at the idea of student responsibility?
3. If yes to #2, is ‘handing things in’ a good measure of student responsibility?
4. Does student regurgitation of low-level factual recall items on quizzes and tests constitute ‘handing things in’ or ‘mastery?’
In response to Mr. Gray's question: I think that this statement can expand below the high school level to elementary and middle school. While I'd like to think that having the students take unfinished work home or giving a true "homework" assignment will help the student understand the material better, it often is not done by the student. Parent help is a good thing, if it is just help. Some of our students even return work in their parents' handwriting! The problem of students "sharing" their answers without discussion of the questions is not a new problem, but a problem none the less. It's difficult to know if we should grade the work or give the students points for simply returning a completed assignment. Grading for learning is much more difficult than just asking students to retain the information and perform well on tests. Can they apply the skills to real life situations?
ReplyDelete"Most grading at the high school level is more reflective of responsibility (just handing things in) and not on whether the student has truly mastered the content."
ReplyDeleteResponse to student's quote:
I think that is a fair statement from certain high school students' perspective. I know in the middle school, we're all about responsibility, which includes so much: bringing materials to class, filling in assignment books, sneezing into your arm, keeping a clean locker, doing homework (as in quote), all that common sense stuff. Unfortunately, so many of our students come to class in a daze of unpreparedness, with nothing but a jumbled up idea of why they're here. No materials, no homework, no grasp of what's going on...it's simply amazing. Now, by high school we'd like to think the leap in maturity would fix the problems, the light bulb would come on and they would put aside childish ways. The shocker is that far too many are still at Point A, back in middle school modus operandi. It's true I think that kids lack just the basics of responsibility to their task or "job" of the moment which is being a student. Is this another societal gap, our students are less and less responsible for the simplest things? Well, anyway, I agonize that the high school staff are seeing far too many students without the basics of being responsible students to their learning. I guess we, as staff, are thrilled to get homework done where once we were thrilled with genuine learning.
Case Study 1 Eval:
ReplyDeleteRegarding "the impact of a zero grade, and devastating effect on a student, causing him to give up..."
Well, I guess I may be hard-nosed on this. I think a student needs to make the test up, to do everything possible to take the test. If there are extenuating circumstances, I'm human, - I wouldn't fill the grade in as zero. BUT, what student, ordinarily, would not make up the test and do everything to get that accomplished?
My husband in his business has to take tests to keep his licenses up to snuff. It's a reality of life. If the assessment is valid and communicates achievement (as we hopefully have done in assessment) in that area, well, that is an appropriate "mark."
Reflecting on case study #3:
ReplyDeleteIf I was an employer, based on the information that was presented in the scenario, it seems that student 2 possessed more knowledge in the hands-on aspect that a mechanic's job would entail, but shows a lack in theory. Issues that arise with this scenario cause me to question if student 1 was absent on the days of the practical exams and thus acquired a zero score, because the student shows remarkable marks in theory, but the application of the theory would be critical for the he/she to secure a job in that field.
This kind of assessment proves nothing but the fact that the students were probably not responsible enough to make up their testing in the area (student 1) that shows a zero. However, because of their reliability, would student 2, who is less knowledgeable in the theory of the practice, secure a job over student 1? And, if so, does that mean we are giving our work force the less competent employees? Okay, so by grading this way, are we basing how well they accomplish all of their tasks and not basing student grades on their knowledge?
Hey, I watched the movie Laura recommended. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteIn general I really dislike it when actors make teachers look like itiots for the sake of "making a point" when in reality it is self-serving. The overexaggeration of rewards and consequences is demeaning. I've done it all in the span of my career. Dabled in rewards, and loved it. Haven't used them for a while now, and that is ok too. My opinion is that the greatest reward is that it is FUN for both the teacher and student. It breaks up the block, it gives kids and teacher a change of pace for a FEW moments. It's not the prevading norm, it is a chance to give variety and it can even elicit some good responses. It's not done all the time because you really just CAN'T. And you wouldn't want to. Come on, I say to the media or to Alfie, give teachers a breaking for having some smarts.
The Parachute Packer and Rosemary:
ReplyDeletePacker 3 all the way. This is my ideal student. He has listened, reflected, understood and at the end, at assessment time, proved his grasp of the concept. The illustration of the parachute brings it home dramatically. But in the real everyday classroom, this assessment, probably formative as we see progress all along the way, is what we want and strive for, and happily communicate that to the student.
In response to Mr. Gray's post and Brenda's comment: We really truly don't know if our students are doing their own "homework" so why should we grade it? It never seems to surprise us when homework is done in someone else's handwriting. So should it be that we send "practice homework" home nightly for the students to look at, practice, and apply the daily lesson, and then give the exact same assignment the next day, in class, so that we can watch them complete it? That way those students that do want to excel and learn, will take the time to look over the work at night and put forth the effort to become more knowledgeable. Even if parents are helping, that would be okay because we aren't "grading" what the students are doing at home. The parents could teach to better then student's understanding, to make the assignment more clear for the next day. It would become very evident quite quickly who is conscious for their own learning and who is not. A teacher's daily plan could be: complete homework, new skill, guided practice, give home practice.
ReplyDeleteOur grades are suppose to correlate with the standards and benchmarks that are taught at that a particular grade level, however how many of our parents and students really know what is expected of them each year? Should we give them a list at the beginning of the year, perhaps Open House, with the requirements for the school year, broken down into when concepts will be taught?
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Laura. How can we all grade by universal standards when we would all interpret student's work differently. And as Brenda stated... we would hate to give up our local control of our schools. Connie and I (in kdg) can agree to test our students over the same material but we aren't the same person so our grading my be different. We can only get fair testing if only one person does the testing and that is not going to happen!
ReplyDeleteI think you have to give grades in order for parents to see how their child is doing. If we didn't give grades then why take the time to fill out report cards and do conferences. I don't know how we can motivate children to "want" to know the basics. They just NEED to know the basics. Once they have passed the class do we check to see if they have retained it the following year? No, we as educators know that the children were presented with the right information and we can sleep better knowing that we tried! As Laura stated, she had a class that she didn't give tests. Hey, if they were all in the class by choice, then we assume they WANT to learn that information. Good for you Laura. Who doesn't enjoy a class more where we just get to learn and we know we don't have to prove we learned! I still have test anxiety!!
ReplyDeleteTo add to Laurel's comments about case study one, it is hard to know why the 0 was given. Absent is next to the score. Sometimes I put a zero in if it is mid-term time or if sufficient time was given to make up the test with reminders, but the student never got it made up. Sometimes just by putting a 0 into JMC, it will remind a student that they need to get that made up, so the poor grade does not remain. Again the responsibility problem. If the test were worth that many points, I would probably discuss the problem with the parent before entering it as my final grade.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lyuda and Kari that it is important to see which skills have been mastered when assessing student progress. This goes along with the books concept of assesssing standards and benchmarks found in the content of what we are teaching.
ReplyDeleteOK, If you have not taken a moment to watch the video link that Laura H provided - please do so.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59KY7ek8Rk
It's worth a good laugh or two (which will help ease the pain of reality).
While watching Laura's Utube clip, I was thinking about a number of things. One thing that came to mind was comments I have heard in the past from students. Sometimes students are offered money from parents or grandparents for A's. It never seems to work. I know in my own case, occasionally my grandpa would give me money for my report card. That was really nice, but it didn't motivate me to do well. Which brings me back to something in the book. The only grades that motivate are those that are higher than a student usually gets or an A. Mostly I would say that is true.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Michelle that there are many factors in grading and deciding how to grade within the same grade level in same school. This may be where instead of having the columns in our gradebooks listing points, they could list the standards/benchmarks and whether the assignment met the criteria(referring to page 57).
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Gray's question about homework as mastering skills or responsibility, I would probably say it is more responsibility than mastery. We have all had those very intelligent students who pick things up in class and do fairly well on tests, but do not turn in homework. So their grade suffers because of it. So in those cases, we might see homework as unimportant, because the student is mastering without the additional practice. I know I have gone to less homework and more quizzes because of all the various problems with homework. However, then what about the student who works hard and would do tons of homework rather than take a test, because they are not good test takers? As someone else mentioned, they have test anxiety.
ReplyDeleteI guess you just try to offer a variety of assessments to try to hit everyone's strengths.
I think most of us would agree that grading is, in the end, subjective. I have a tendency to give more objective quizzes where there is more or less one right answer, because they are so much easier to grade. When I give writing assignments, they are the last thing I get graded. It takes me forever to decide whether the paper should be an A or a B. Rubrics can help, but it is really a struggle for me. I love to read what the kids write and it is certainly the better choice for seeing how well the students apply their knowledge, but English teachers, how do you do it??????
ReplyDeleteIn response to Laurel's post at 11:56-I think the students' lack of responsibility is a societal change. It used to be that kids had to do things because their parents said so. Now they are being told that they shouldn't have to do it because it isn't important. Sometimes I think some parents are taking the phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" a little too far and putting the responsibility on the schools. I also believe that if we drastically change the way we grade, parents won't understand it and will fight the change. Whether it is for the best or not they will fight it and won't want to understand it because this is the way it's always been. In a perfect world we would be able to do all of these wonderful things with the support of the parents and community but I feel like change is resisted.
ReplyDeleteHere's the most interesting part of this section to me. On pg 50 it has the "Traditional Plan for Middle School Grading" My rationale is basically the complete opposite. Although I don't put weighting on my grades, I put much more emphasis on Independent Learning and Cooperative Learning (thank you R&R) than I do on Quizzes and Tests. Does this mean I'm ahead of the game? Go me!
ReplyDeleteFor me, especially in my environment, students are more apt to show their true knowledge through class activities than paper and pencil tests. Do we still grade them? Yah, because in the traditional sense there is still that concrete grade. But when the end of the quarter runs down (like now) I take time to reflect on those class activities than can really influence a students grade.
Having said all that, I'd like to know what this book is going to suggest as we progress along for options in student grading.
Comments:
To Katie- Can we do away with multiple choice? Just taking some tests this past weekend, I was able to narrow it down to 50/50. So can our kids. Thats why I much prefer short answer and essay but it's like pulling teeth, especially when they lack the skills to form full sentences.
To Neil- That post encompasses all the questions we have. It seems like such a clear cut statement but what exactly does mastered look like. What is the criteria? Are we going to end this book study with more questions than answers?
To the video and writers at "The Office"- What a great example of rewards in the class! Gold slips? After 6th grade, they could care less about those things. I'd like to encounter my college profs face to face because all the systems of rewards and punishments they shoved down my throat those 4 yrs aren't showing their glory in the real world. So, what's Alfie's take on classroom management? That's a whole other in-service....Great video though!
On page 67, Glasser (P. 108) is quoted as saying, "no student grade should ever depend on what other students do." From the reading, there are considerable differences of opinion regarding grading people on the curve. Obviously, to say we are going to have so many A's, B's, C's, D's, and F's is something that bothers me a great deal. The book suggests that it "goes against the goal of successful learning for all students." (Bellanca 1992,1999) The book also suggests that the students tested must be in the hundreds or even a thousand. I do not know how many people at EC have ever graded on the curve, but to me it's nonsense. Some classes have many talented students taking the class. I'd hate to see a student achieve in the 80% and get an F if that were the lowest score. Obviously, it's been A LONG TIME AGO, but I remember a collge professor insisting this was the way to grade. I think there are enough concerns about grading without having to limit others due to the scores of their peers. I think as long as we grade, a student shall earn a grade according to the specific requirements outlined by the teacher and their grading scale.
ReplyDeleteIn case study #1, I agree with the grade because it does say tests are 50% of the total grade. I have kids miss tests and try to come in whenever they feel like it to make it up. I would like to learn more about why the zero was given and if the student missed a make up time to take the test.
ReplyDeleteCase study #2 has really broken down the grading system into many categories. In the past, I have done a total points grade including tests with no weights on them. I always told students I grade this way because I consider everything you do to have equal importance. In college, some classes were primary based on tests, and daily work had little effect. I guess a blend of various activities that reach all learning intelligences (p.7) is the goal I have always tried to achieve. On tests, I like Bloom's Taxonomy theory on the various types of questions that a teacher includes on the test. An essay question will get the student to the highest levels of both Synthesis and Evaluation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kari that education has been drastically affected by the role of parents. Now that they have access to their son/daughter's grades, why do we still have so many problems? Obviously, some parents don't have access to see them. Also, with dual-working parents, it is more difficult to sit down with the family and discuss things at school. I went to a coaching clinic 2 years ago and the basketball coach at Michigan State gave a great speech that I have on DVD. He was mad at the teachers/coaches who have caved in to this notion that power has been stripped from the schools. He said to stop blaming the kids! If you have set grading program or coaching philosophy let the kids and parents know about it and ask for input or questions. Once all questions have been asked and people have had a chance to speak out, stick to your goals. I liked his speech, but in all reality, colleges can grade and evaluate in ways that we can't in grades K-12 due to some of the pitfalls of the NCLB idea that have invade our school systems. I agree with Kari, that parents can really help set the tone by supporting the school and the teachers by making their kids responsible.
ReplyDeleteI too have watched the video on you tube. I agree with Laurel that the actors make us as teachers look like idiots. How many of us haven't given students rewards for a job well done? I believe that students can earn rewards for certain things. Some students tend to work harder if they know they will receive a special something. Other students don't need the rewards to do their very best. I am lucky to have children like that. I have never given my own children rewards for having A's on their report card. They work hard for the A's because they want them, not because they are getting a reward for them. I tend to reward my students on occasion if they have accomplished something (like a 100 percent on a test). I don't do it very often because that gets expensive. But for the students who don't feel rewarded just for getting good grades, I think an extra incentive is okay. This week we are encouraging our students to read so they can have guesses on how many pieces of candy are in the candy jar. How is this type of reward any different than giving the students an occasional reward for something done well?
ReplyDeleteI like Katie's idea in her post on March 2 at 2:14. Quite often we get homework back from students that is either done in the parents' handwriting or that we know the parents practically did the work for them. When I give an assignment and the student gets most of it right, and then I give the test and the same student misses it, it makes me wonder how much was actually learned by the student. I really like Katie's teacher daily plan: complete homework, new skill, guided practice, and give home practice. I really truly think that parental involvement has a lot to do with how well a student does in school. As teachers we know how important education is and we make sure that our own children know too. I really believe that we are a minority. Quite a few parents now are simply too busy to help their child with homework. A lot has changed in our society too that hurts the child. I don't see it getting any better anytime soo either. This makes it so frustrating for us as teachers. We want all of our students to succeed and it's just not possible without parental involvement.
ReplyDeleteI would like to comment on a particular sentence on page 45. It reads, "Guidelines also should have school and/or district policy status, so that students and parents can understand the grading practices used in their classrooms, and so that they can expect grading practices that are consistent among all teachers in each school." I do not believe that this would be a difficult goal to achieve. Even if this conception (the goal wouldn't be too difficult) is wrong, I embrace the idea of giving it a try. In this way, parents of our students would know our grading scale and other factors that are included in our grading practices. Elem. would have their own guidelines. Middle School and High School would have their own guidelines. This may be a good beginning to improve grading practices.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lyuda and her comment to Laura's post. I believe we do need to grade. I am assuming that both are alluding to letter grades. First, teachers need to have some idea as to how much information our students are attaining. Second, parents need some idea as to how their child is progressing. Sometimes, that is the only information they receive about what is happening in classes at school. Lastly, in most instances grading can be an incentive to work hard and strive to do the best job possible.
ReplyDeleteI am responding to Katie's comment on 3/2. I think I would give your ideas an affirmative vote. The concepts we teach that meet our Standards and Benchmarks could even be given out at the beginning of each quarter. I remember when I was substituting in the lower grades, the teachers would send out a weekly news letter. It painted a picture of what was happening that week in the classroom and what skills were being taught in subject areas. As a parent, I enjoyed reading it. It not only kept me in touch with my children's education but also gave me a chance to enforce what skills were being taught.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was attending college, each instructor would give out a syllabus on the first day of class. This gave an outline of the class requirements and expectations.
Katie, you might be on to a great idea! Do you think we might even see an increase in parent involvement?
I am reflecting on Mrs. Siever's last sentence on her 2/26 blog. She mentioned that she believes that all grading is not bad. It just needs to be revamped I agree with her. I also agree that I would like Student 3 to pack my parachute. Student 3 would be a true success at any grade level. A success for the student, teacher and even the parents, if they played a role in this. A mastery level grade would be a must for this student of voluminous improvements.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- "GO ME" indeed!!! Go YOU! I think that your process of assessing by observation of independent and cooperative learning is imperative at every level and important to remember. We all do it whether consciously or unconsciously every day. How it ultimately affects our grading of other assessments is interesting.
ReplyDeleteSherri-"offer a variety of assessments to try to hit everyone's strengths" Wow! I can't help but see how this fits into so many categories... Multiple intelligences, Brain Research, Meaningful content, etc. Without reading ahead.... this HAS to be how we pull all of this discussion together.
PS.... good news about the video...I think office workers are the butt of the joke although teachers do get a bit of bad video if you perceive it as such... it could be worse... we could be lawyers!!
I agree with Katie, why not give the parents a list of what basically will be covered in the year. Perhaps it would be easier to do this each quarter. I don't have as many skills to cover throughout the year. Of course, this will probably be read as much as anything else we send home. We send home a check list at kdg round-up of basic skills and I know the parents really appreciate it. In kdg we send home a list of all 36 sight words we will work on in kdg. Some parents may even take the time to practice these words early! Ya never know!!
ReplyDeleteCase study 6
ReplyDeleteI believe that each school district should have the same grading scales for all grade levels that use letter grades. Even better yet all schools nation wide should use the same grading scale so that grade points for college entrance are the same. My sons in going to Northeast had the higher grading scale for each letter grade over what I use here which I didn't think was fair. I and I believe that most teachers in the middle school use 90-100% A 80-89 B 70-79% C 60-69% less than 60% F.
This is a test
ReplyDeleteIt is only a test... that will be graded by a skilled professional with 4000 options to grade it. Ha!
ReplyDeleteReflection on #7 and 8
ReplyDeleteI have thought a lot about grading over the years, but never put my finger on the drawbacks for music. I have just always had an uneasy feeling associated with assigning grades, especially letters. These two Grading Practices helped put some perimeters around my thinking.
Much of music learning is evidenced in the performance of musical skills, and the acquisition of skills happens over time, given sufficient practice. In addition, readiness for the learning is often developmental, i.e. being able to cross the midline to clap accurately, or hear and match a pitch.
If I tell parents or students, through grades, that they have failed this skill, will they think they are a "non-singer" for the rest of their lives? Many people will say they cannot carry a tune, and I always wonder if they were told that early on, before they had the maturity/opportunity to develop the skill.
At any rate, I am much more likely to use class participation and effort in the musical tasks at hand as the basis for assigning grades, putting my hope in the idea that given more time to mature and more opportunities to practice, even the "late blooming" students will eventually accomplish some level of musical mastery and see themselves as musicians.
Case Study 8: Grading Practices That Inhibit Learning. There were several things that I use to do when I was teaching second grade. I did the trick questions, the pop quizzes, and not letting students take risks. Looking at the ITBS tests there are alot of trick questions and trick pictures. So what are we testing them for? We need to teach and have discussions before we do the test so they really know what we are asking them on the test. We may have to do some reteaching if the results on the test aren't what we want. I like what was said about Pop Quizzes and how they help with more cheating in a room than what a student has learned because more times than not they weren't prepared because they weren't told about it. How can we take in abilities when we test? Some kids come to school not exposed to much and others have a great wealth of knowledge yet in the earlier grades the lower students are expected to be all caught up with the students that have been exposed to more.
ReplyDeleteI'm so impressed with all the blogs thus far. Have enjoyed them immensely. Ron Clark would be proud because they are "honest, no matter what, they are positive, and they reflect the virtue of standing up for what we believe in." Hats off! Now, would you vote me the "BEST BLOG?" HA! Actually, I felt we needed some levity since the blog site has been giving many people fits and putting a stall in the process. Am I imagining this, BLOGGOJEVICHES???
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of "hard-nosed," Laurel (12:07), I worked for a superintendent who still taught and was as tough as they come in terms of grading, attendance, content, etc. in his Pre-Calculus class. Kids were practically wheeled in on gurneys with i.v.'s when they were sick so they didn't miss his class. They wouldn't miss his class for a couple of reasons. First, the content was tough and they didn't want to miss that. Second, if they made it to all the classes they would be given some sort of extra credit points, which was very big in his class. I think of him because he did not allow any zeroes in his class. He felt they mathematically distorted the student's grade. I believe the student would at worst receive a 59% so they weren't doomed grade-wise. It made for interesting discussion with the rest of our staff.
ReplyDeleteI am struggling with expressing myself through blogs, but here goes. I keep going back to page 3 of the book. Paul Dressel's definition of grading is, "A grade can be regarded only as an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has attained an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite amount of material." This brings to mind a recent experience that my son had in his English Comp. class at CCC. Please keep in mind that I do not believe my children are perfect. After all, they are human! My son's assignment was to write an observation paper from a positive point of view, then rewrite it from a negative point of view. He struggled and spent many hours writing this paper. He used the rubric and text book to guide him. In the end, I was very impressed with the paper he wrote about the Mississippi River. I truly didn't know he could write that well. He asked me to look through the rubric and help him correct his errors. We followed the rubric and fixed them. He took the paper to his peer review. His paper went through peer review with mostly positive comments and few suggestions on how to make it better. He worked on those suggestions and handed it in. His final grade was a D+. Apparently, he missed out on the direction somewhere that said he needed to physically make the observation the day he wrote the paper. It wasn't on the rubric, so he didn't catch it. He wrote about what the river was like in the summer. It was winter when he wrote the paper. Thus, the bad grade. Does this grade mean that his paper was poorly written?
ReplyDeleteI am currently working on putting grades on report cards. Paul Dressel's definition of grading has really made me stop and think about what kind of a judge I am(biased or not) and to what extent those grades show mastery of the material.
I like Joanie's comment on ITBS. Many of the questions/pictures on the 2nd grade test are tricky. They trick the students who actually know the content and would be able to answer correctly in a different test format. I am so glad that we don't have to give them in 2nd grade any more!
ReplyDeleteI just composed a thoughtful and thought provoking item, but now you’ll never get to consider it because it is lost forever in the place where theses things go when this *^$%^% thing does not work as I expected, and this computer ATE MY HOMEWORK. FOR THE UMTEENTH TIME!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIn looking forward to where we are going with the Iowa Core Curriculum and the 21st Century Skills I have been thinking about how grading may be affected:
ReplyDelete1. Will teachers adjust their grading habits to fit the new standards as described on page 51 by targeting learning goals for each grading period?
2. Will it once again be important to turn completed work in as a sign of meeting the “responsibility” requirements of the 21st Century employers for whom we are preparing employees?
Chris, it's a poltergeist harassing you and Jean too. I had similar experiences last night. Copy your comment before posting, then you may be able to redo with a paste if it eats your post again.
ReplyDeleteThe case 6 study was very interesting. How can one district have 80% be an "A" while another district has 80% a "D"? That faulty grading damages both teachers and students would apply here. I like to use 90,80,70,60 for a scale. I know that some staff members like the "A" to be higher--maybe 92%. The district with an 80% as a "D" could be an honors-type curriculum.
ReplyDeleteI watched the video that Laura suggested.I think that he did a terrible job with using rewards at the workplace and that is not the way that I use rewards in my classes. I use rewards as a way of making learning more enjoyable. I don't use rewards every day. Some days the class reward may just be passing the knowledge ball around the classroom as we read, have class discussion, or do an activity.
ReplyDeleteResponse to Laura--Your description of a real life disappointment can help explain why students grow cynical and some even resort to copying or other forms of less-than-honest behavior. If the writing was not the important part of the assignment, it wouldn't have required a rubric of specific ways to do that right!! Evidently the REALLY important part was the time in which the observation was made--not the content of the writing.
ReplyDeleteI hope THIS makes it into the right place.
After reading Brenda and Laura's comments I understand what they are saying even if we have a certain percent to use in grading-our types of quiz and test questions vary from multiple choice, T or F, Matching, essay, venn diagrams and so forth. Our grading of essays vary from teacher to teacher as you have said. What one person thinks is a super answer another may think is so so. At least using the same percentage is a start to fair grading. I weigh quizzes and tests more than assignments.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sherri that I try different assessments to try to determine learning for those who have problems taking quizzes and tests. I am accessing on more projects, presentations, and group work than other years. This still leaves the problem of how to give grades on those assessments by using a rubric. Much of this is still left to my interpretation of how will the student did. Grading a project and presentation is not as concrete as having a certain percent on a quiz or test for a particular letter grade.
ReplyDeleteIf we revamp our grading won't ITBS have to be changed? If we are supposed to get rid of the paper/pencil test, why are standardized test still this way? Everybody is in agreement that something needs to be changed but I keep coming up with more questions than answers. Now that we are aware of all of these things, what can we do?
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I would never be jumping off even the balance beam on the playground so...parachuting out of a plane is hard to imagine. However, if it came to that, I would want to choose the student (3) who was successful in learning how to pack the parachute in the end. Hopefully in our teaching, we are trying to help the students reach their highest success rate in their learning. In our grading, we should keep in mind that we are to use the grades as we go along to help us decide which direction to take the students to aid them in reaching their best success level. Of course we don't know all of the factors that went into each of these students' learning, but student 3 was a slow and pretty steady rise. Both of the other two were up and down. Factors that caused these scores--time, effort, absence from important class time, ability, support from others, one on one help, practice, hands on work???
ReplyDeleteWould anyone like to join in my blog at:
ReplyDeletehttp://ecteachers-lgruhn.blogspot.com
In response to Merrill, I do think that it is helpful to list things for parents. It does mean
ReplyDeletea whole lot more to parents to have a list of the letters, sounds, and numbers that their child already knows as opposed to just marking B-Beginning, W-Working on it, or M-Mastered letter, sounds, words. It does take a lot more time, but as a parent I appreciated the details as opposed to just an overall comment. That is why I like talking to parents at conference times so I can show them what I actually did to get the grade.
In all of these cases the questions for reflection are similar. Are they fair? Do they reflect learning? Do they reflect achievement? What grade does this student deserve? To all of these and to all of the examples I could answer 'yes' or 'no' depending simply on the reasoning behind the grading system chosen.
ReplyDeleteIn Case 1 there was a 0 and that skewed the results. What skews my answer one way or the other was the reason for the 0. Did the students know that particular assessment was worth so much of their grade? What reasoning did the teacher have for not allowing a score other than 0, or giving an assignment worth so many points and then allowing a 0? We don't know.
Does that mean that the teacher does not have a logical reason for assessing this student the way he or she did? No. I believe that letter grades are only as good as the teachers ability to think through their subject area, figure out exactly what they are trying to accomplish as well as the best assessment tool to measure that, and communicate that to their students and their student's parents in a way that they can understand. Others disagreeing with your grading system is much different than others not understanding the logic BEHIND your grading system. If you have a lot of people questioning your logic, you need to take a hard look at what you are doing, preferably by talking to other professionals in your content area, and not other teachers in your building; unless they teach in the same content area as you do.
I look at each of these cases and come up with a scenario in my mind where each one of them could be the best way to assess according to different preset factors that I as the teacher would know. We are not privy to this information while reading these cases, however, and have only our imagination to wonder why each particular teacher chose each assessment method.
Just because we don’t understand why each assessment method was chosen, does not make the assessor wrong.
There is only one of these cases where I would argue there is only one that assessment should be done. The case I really have a very strong belief about is Case #5. I would not allow any student to pack my parachute until they mastered the procedures 1000 times in a row!!!! As a teacher of this skill I would not allow it to be any other way because of the importance of mastery in this particular activity. There is no gray area here. Life and death is an area in which mistakes are not forgivable. Forgetting to capitalize every word in a title on an English paper and not getting a perfect assessment, I can live with.
Personally I am still a fan of the checklist of items mastered. In elementary classes I know exactly what my child can and cannot do. I can focus on the things he needs help with the most. A ‘C’ in math tells me nothing. A list of concepts he/she cannot seem to solve (subtraction when borrowing is needed, adding fractions with different denominators, understanding what the > sign means) tells me how to help my child become a better math student. A ‘B’ in English tells me little. A list of what they are looking for at that age level tells me if he/she has a problem with pronouns, subject-verb agreement, or proper noun capitalization. Is it possible to be this exact at all levels all the way through the educational process? I don’t know. I don’t think it is yet, but maybe 100 years from now they will be looking back at what we are doing and say, “What were they thinking?!?”
Where is the balance between what is the best and what is plausible in each individual content area?
In response to Brenda,
ReplyDeleteI agree that grading for learning is more difficult than just asking students to retain information & perform well on tests. The real test does seem to be applying the skills to real life situations. Watching my two young adult children of my own go out into the working world and off to college has been an experience. You work so hard to make sure that they will make good choices and know how to handle situations when they are not with you. It has been interesting!
I would like to agree whole-heartedly with Kari's comment on "It takes a whole village to raise a child." While all of us have responsibilities to our children as teachers, community members, church members, etc., this whole village idea has gotten the best of us. In my opinion, the family unit has more importance than the village. I am being careful here to define family unit as the "people in charge." This could be a single parent, grandparents, uncle, and so forth. The village provides the youth group leader, boy scout leader, athletic booster, music booster, and so on. The family unit provides opportunity for the child to experience the individuals and organizations, and gain "people skills" to deal with this world in an appropriate manner.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joanie's thoughts about ITBS. If the whole point in the test is to find out what the students really know, then the questions should not try to trick them. We go over the test questions at our in-services and make comments about how it was worded or the pictures they give them. If we are going to put kids through this process for the intention of showing us where they are, then we should feel confident that the test provides us with a true picture.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the comments about our standardized tests--ITEDS or ITBS. We are giving a test that is virtually unchanged from when many of us oldtimers took these 40 years ago. The format needs to change now--perhaps take a page from our map testing given this year. These tests should be done on-line. Questions should be revised to match the newer methods of instruction.
ReplyDeleteThanks to Darla for her comments on case study #5. I don't care where someone starts when practicing a parachute pack, but I am sure where I want them to finish before they pack mine. They better be above the competency/ mastery level line. The end product is far more important than how they got there.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Joanie's comments on ITBS. To go even further, the 1st Grade test is compleatly read to students, with the exception of small portions of the reading tests. It ends up being a listening test, so is it really testing what it says it's testing? For years I lobbied to get ITBS out of 1st Grade...I'm so glad we finally got rid of it! I think there are more authentic ways to assess First Graders and better use of class time than that!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Connie and Merrill that learning expectations and evaluations need to be explained to parents. I also think that when one communicates with the parent about their child it shows that you are truly concerned with the 'learning that takes place' not just the grading. In spelling, I have had so many students this year that have a problem. I contact the parent and suggest that we cut the list from 13 words to 10, to help the student become more successful. It's hard to feel good about studying words that you know you cannot spell and cannot remember. Sometimes just cutting the list helps. However, if I feel the student is improving, that is, getting closer to the accurate spelling with each practice, they will benefit from studying and practicing a word they need to know how to read anyway. Even if they eventually use spell-check, one has to get close at least, in order for spell-check to work. Spelling may seem like a black or white subject, but as I said, there are benefits to working with letter order and patterns in words. I also strive to acknowledge that improvement has been made. In spelling, it is difficult to make up a test if one has been absent for any length of time because we are usually into another list. I may take that week out so that grade doesn't ruin the whole quarter, especially when they were trying hard and had been showing improvement.
ReplyDeleteMerrill began the discussion and others added to it, but I have always tried write narratives with the report cards that I send out, even when I meet with the parents. I do this to explain why I marked the report card the way I did and if we did meet, it becomes a summary of our meeting and the parents can take it home and remember what we discussed. I also include the narratives with the report cards in students' folders so that future teachers know what happened during First Grade. As a parent, comments on my own children's grades are few and far between and I don't feel I know as much as I would like about how my children are progressing at school. It is very time consuming (just ask my family what I'm like around report card time!), however, I know that I have tried to give as much information to parents as I possibly can.
ReplyDeleteSherry expressed a concern with grading writing. I have finally come to terms with grading my kids writing. I have a rubric I use and gave to my parents at the first conference this year. It is a four point list and I explained the criteria. I gave them a copy and encouraged them to put it in the cupboard where they could refer to it when they saw writing come home graded. I have to say, however, that I am very subjective. If the piece has the content I asked (even though it may not be readable to the average Joe off the street), I find myself elated that a student I have been worried was never going to make any gains, has created a clever and meaningful writing piece that followed the instructions. I have some very creative writers, but they do have to learn to be able to follow directions and write what the assignment calls for.
ReplyDeleteLyuda discussed math grades and that brought something Laurel also said bout convincing students we are teaching them, not just knowledge, but skills so they can become their own teachers. Math units in elementary grades show grades that go up and down depending upon the unit being taught. One student might be able to add and subtract but cannot count money. Again, I try to communicate to parents that counting money and measurement are math skills that need to reinforced in everyday life. Also, getting back to getting students to realize they are preparing to become life-long learners, I try to explain that math is learned in a sequence of steps in a process. They have to be patient with their brains as they train it to follow the steps in the process they are trying to learn. I say, "Give your brain a break and be patient with it. Keep doing what you are doing (regrouping with ten and one blocks) and your brain will get it one of these days!" In a few days, most of the students say, "Oh, I get it now!" and they do. That is when you sit back for a moment and smile, enjoying that learning has actually been accomplished! (Then you straighten up and get back to the trenches! Ha!)
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Gray's post and Brenda and Katie's comment: while I feel that these points are all valid, there are so many ways for a student to fluff the reality of the "I don't get it" scenario, even if we are repeatedly going over the material, whether as practice homework or in-class assignments. Even when you sit right down with them and have them produce the steps for you, aren't there always going to be a few that still "forget" how to do it by the time a test rolls around? "If they don't use it, they loose it"?
ReplyDeleteIn response to Darrel's post: I too believe that the family should be the front-man in the student's cheering section, but all too often they are not and only "seem" to understand their role in their child's life.
ReplyDeleteAs for my experience as a youth, it was the secondary cheering section in my life, the coaches and adoptive secondary family members, that made me look at where I came from and realize that could rise up from my circumstances. We need to remember that sometimes we, teachers, are all that one child has to look up to (and believe me, they see it all).
I want to comment about the approach to prioritizing standards they discussed on page 11 of the introduction, Understanding by Design from Wiggins and McTighe. I attended an inservice several years ago. It uses a backward design: 1) Identify desired results (the Big Idea), 2) Determine acceptable evidence of achievement and 3) Plan learning experiences and instruction. I actually used it to design the second grade Dinosaur unit. (It is a kit, but I identified the Big Ideas that I wanted to emphasize like: We use bones and fossils from animals in the past to compare to living animals to understand how they lived.) Prioritizing standards and identifying the skills we want students to come away with is the beginning. We look at the best practices in teaching those skills and processes to set up classroom activities. "It will be easier for teachers to separate their dual classroom roles of coach/advocate and judge because of the clear focus on publicly articulated learning goals to all." Students can then see assessment as something done with them to improve learning, not just to find out what they don't know. 'Grading practices must reflect and illuminate standards.'
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Laurel about the movie. It had some merit but like so many ideas that have come down the pike, "the experts" say this is what will make the students learn and then the next week we find that it was not exactly true. Some of us that have been in education for a few years (no response needed to that) have seen many ideas that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas only to find that they did not even come close to solving the problems in education they were aimed at.
ReplyDeleteIn response to coach Meisner: "I think as long as we grade, a student shall earn a grade according to the specific requirements outlined by the teacher and their grading scale." But, what happens to the student who always turns in all of their work, always performs well on tests and gives even the easiest questions thought and consideration? They get the A, right? So, how about the student who does not have a parental figure prodding them to get the work done, to meet deadlines and to try their hardest? They are the students we punish with a failing grade, but no more is expected of them, except by we teachers. We expect them to rise above, but how do you get them to come in (when you offer them extra help) to finish the job?
ReplyDeleteI have a couple students who are failing miserably because (even when they are given most of a class period to do the work - writing) they are simply not caring enough to "get 'er done". How do we curb this? I know it's not something that can not be changed, but how much easier do you get than to rant and rave about your own life (autobiographies)?
I have a question about Lyuda making the easier grading scale for the math class.What does this really show? Even with the better grades they still have not learned what is required. I would like to see some guidelines,state wide, of what skills each grade or subject should be taught. That way for instance if we have 2 elementary classes, although taught differently, would still expose the students to the same skills.
ReplyDeleteI think students need to be responsible for their learning. If that means handing in an assignment then so be it. Some where along the line they are going to have to be responsible for a lot more than just a couple of papers to get handed in. To Michelle and Kari-do all the skills need to be mastered in Reading if the final goal is reached of being able to comprehend what is read? Just a question.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteA reflection on Case Study 5:
ReplyDeleteAs a teacher, I definitely would want Student 3 packing my parachute...and in my class! Not only did the student achieve above the competency/mastery level, but the growth and gains during the learning process continue to go up throughout the time period. Isn't that what we hope we see in all of our students? We take them from wherever they may be skill wise and help them to grow in knowledge and in skills and hopefully see improvement and ultimately reach the goals we have set. Teaching is so fun when this happens! Student 2 reminds me of a learning disabled student...one day they have it, the next day they don't and more often than not, they do not reach our goal. I wonder about the story on Student 3. How can that student be so high and then fall off? It reminds me of our upper end students. With NCLB we worry about the middle and lower end students to make sure they meet the criteria and that's where all of our efforts end up. It's hard to make sure the upper end stays challenged and engaged in their learning.
In response to Darla's comment on the checklist for elementary (at least early elementary), I agree with her! Checklists give a lot more information than just a grade. When we revamped our report cards years ago, we were trying to do this. It was a good start, but we haven't updated the report cards since we started and they aren't as good as they should be by now. I realize the checklist idea wouldn't work for upper grades, but as the foundation for those grades, it would be nice to show what students can actually do and what still needs to be worked on by both home and school before they get to the upper grades? We in the lower elementary are hoping to get to make our report cards "new and improved" soon. Maybe we'll get some good ideas as we work here!
ReplyDeleteI would most definitely want student 3 packing my parachute. Not only does that student understand how to pack a parachute but because of his/her early on failures he/she understands how not to pack one as well. This student had opportunities to fail and learn from their mistakes and the growth was then evident in the end. Many times in preschool we want to jump in and be problem solvers for the students but it is so very important for us as preschool teachers to be facilitators rather than problem solvers. We need to let them make mistakes so we can help them figure out what to do next. I believe that helping them through their mistakes is a wonderful teaching moment. Questions such as "How can we fix that?" "What do you think we should do about that?" are just two questions that we are being trained to use in order to help our preschool children become thinkers.
ReplyDeleteA couple people have stated that parents are doing their childs homework. What? Well, I know what I have been doing wrong! Just kidding! I want to know what my children are doing and the one way I have found to stay involved is to hang around while they do their homework. It keeps me up to speed on not only what they are learning but how my children are understanding it. I enjoy double checking it and then making them figure out what part of it is wrong. What can we do as educators to help parents understand the best practices when it comes to school work and helping their children?
ReplyDeleteI watched the youtube video on rewards and consequences and I would agree and disagree with it. I agree with it because as adults don't get patted on the back everyday for what we do, we just do it because it is the right thing to do. I believe we need to teach children the right things to do and as much as possible avoid extrinsic motivators. Extrinsic motivators can be overused (example: stickers), however for those of you who know that when the preschool children learned how to tie their shoes they got to wear a big pair of clown shoes and everyone learned how to do it in five weeks is a little contradicting. They were rewarded with something (clown shoes), if they did something (tied), rather than understanding why they needed to learn to tie their shoes (so they didn't fall over each other or fall and get hurt). So I guess I believe that everything needs to be within in reason and based on each situation.
ReplyDeleteOne final comment on the youtube video that I forgot to mention earlier (I think it was in the youtube video). I do believe that if you have a class that is off task, you must look at yourself and ask what am I doing wrong? How can I (as the adult) be more creative and get this group engaged in the task at hand. It usually ends up being more fun than the original plan. It really does not take preschoolers long to let Jodi (Christof) and I know about things that do not interest them as a group. We quickly pull out plan B. We also try to find out what interests them and teach and meet our goals around that.
ReplyDeleteAn aspect of teaching I continually struggle with is grading. My struggles include the amount of papers I grade, what assignments I grade, and when I find the time to grade. In chapter 1 of the the text several ideas struck me as important. The main one is linking grades to standards. Logging onto JMC, my grades are set up by category of assignment. Even though I teach with regards to the standards, I guess my grading doesn't necessarily reflect that. To make this shift in grading, the question, as Neil posted, is what constitutes true mastery of content. Pondering these ideas about grading and thinking about the IA Core Curriculum meeting tomorrow, I wonder if making this shift in grading could correspond with implementing the new standards and benchmarks.
ReplyDeleteComments to postings:
Matt – The concept of not allowing zeros is something I have seriously considered. So if a teacher doesn't allow zeros, does he or she allow low quality work in the D- range? The idea is failure isn't an option, but what about the idea some students hold of just getting by? Is that permissible? I would just love it if all students were intrinsically motivated to do their best and produce high quality work.
Sherri – I also enjoy reading student writing. Writing can certainly show students' higher level thinking. But I feel your pain in the grading. This book study will be good for us!
To all of you discussing a universal grading system – Again, this is something I have often thought about and would like more consistency with at our school. However, at the high school level it gets complicated especially when some of our students take classes in three different school districts. Preston give pluses and minuses whereas East Central doesn't.
One of my struggles with grading is when we do activities on what to do with the kid that was absent. It is hard in science to redo activities a different day for the kid that missed. In case study 2, they gave kids zeros for when they missed Labs. These zeros really hurt the students grades!! I generally will have students do an alternative to the lab to fill in the spot in the grade book. I don't know if this is the correct method or not but it is easier then trying to find time to redo all the labs for kids that are absent.
ReplyDeleteOn packing the parachute - you want them to master the task before actually doing the packing. I don't know how to make sure the students have mastered the material before the test.
ReplyDeleteTo add to Mr.Meisner topic of what % grade should be used for testing?? My biggest problem ( I know I have many) is with the activities and other things going on I seem to be able to get only 3-4 test in per quarter. I would like to try the grading system in case 4 where they give multiple assessments. This would require me redoing all my tests.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Kari's comments on the village raising the child. I feel the our society in general is like this. It is never there responsibility to do something. It is always easier to blame someone else.
ReplyDeleteResponse #1
ReplyDeleteI thought the youtube video was great! Just like the satire used in the Sat. night live clip about how students act in the classroom, but only focusing on the teacher. All students don't act like the SNL clip...but some do. All teachers don't act like The Office clip...but some do. I think these videos are trying to make us aware of not-so-good methods but doing it in a way to also let us smile a little bit and realize that we don't always have to be corrected with a lecture, and sometimes humor can be a great way to get a point across.
Response #2
This is a question for the administrators or the JMC administrators? Why can’t we switch the system so we can use + and –‘s. I know previous administrators have said that it is too hard to calculate. I don’t buy that. Maybe there is a legitimate reason that we do not use them, if so what is it and is the there a possibility of changing this so our grades are more accurate? This may seem like a little thing, but is one that every teacher that I have talked to would like to see done.
Response #3
Back to the mastery checklist and add in the decision to pass a student to the next level when some basic concepts have not been mastered. We all know instances where a student was passed on from grade level to grade level and did not master the basic content level from the previous year. By the time the student gets to junior high and high school the student is totally frustrated and the teachers are totally frustrated. If we want each student to meet their potential we have to demand the mastery of the basics at every level and allow no exceptions. Currently I have several students that moved in from another district and were passed on through all of the elementary years and are testing at the 3rd-5th grade math level. Next year I will be tutoring them in Alg. I. What is the logic in that? When you start trying to come up with alternatives several things get in the way. No child left behind legislation, least restrictive environment requirements, staffing problems, inclusion rates for learning disabled students, etc…. If I follow compliance to a “t” that student stays in Alg. and more than likely will remain at the 3rd –5th grade level for another year because we can’t teach that student the content he/she really needs. Where does reform start for cases like these?
I thought the youtube was a stitch. I guess I have a sick sense of humor. I think we have to take life with a sense of humor otherwise we would get so negative and down in the mouth. How many kids do you hear say,"Go ahead. I don't want that anyways." I think having check list in the Lower Elem. works better because you can show parents what they actually can and can't do. When we use Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory that can also be confusing. Who determines what is satisfactory or not? My son got a S- and to me that wasn't a good thing. The teacher couldn't tell me how he earned that - mark. I was very confused and wanted to know how he could improve and she never gave me an answer. As Educators we need to know why we do what we do and explain that to the parents and even the children that we teach.
ReplyDeleteDebb P. says...
ReplyDeleteThis really made me think about how zeros in the grade book affect not only a child's grade, but their view of themselves as a learner and their abilities. Are we grading what they "could do" if they did it (i.e. their ability) or are we grading what they "actually did" (i.e. their performance.) I understand that it is not fair to give a grade that doesn't reflect a student's overall achievement in general. However, I have a problem with the thinking that not all students need to make up their missed work. Why is it fair for some students to be required to do all the work and not others? Of course, the circumstances surrounding the absence or the lack of making it up may determine how I might handle a zero in the grade book. If a student happened to be absent for a long period of time and is making an effort to make up the work, I would probably take this into account and average the grades from the assignments, projects, and tests not counting in the points available from the missed work. If they were absent right at the end of the quarter without a chance to make up the work, I would do the same thing. However, what about a student who continuously is absent and never feels it necessary to hand anything in? Doesn't effort have anything to do with the grading process? I don't think the gal in Case study#2 who did mostly A work all the time and was absent on a testing day deserves a D. That is unreasonable! This is what makes grading so subjective. If we treat everyone the "same" then we believe we are being "fair." If we are not taking into account their abilities (or lack therof due to an IEP) or absences then we are not being "fair." It has given me some "food for thought." Students may view themselves as an incapable learner if they earned lower grades. I know that it is always a judgment call about whether or not to bump a student's grade when they are on the borderline of bumping up. This is when I take into account their effort, how they work with others, whether they ask questions or not, whether they turn in their work. I don't want a student to see grades as a way for punishment or for them to feel bad. However, I think sometimes when we are grading it is easy to equate a grade with just what is in the grade book or zeros that are there. I think that grading has to be done with student interest in mind. Will they give up if you give them the grade that they "earned" according to the number crunching? Is it worth it to take that risk? What are your thoughts on this?
Debb P. says...
ReplyDeleteDarla,
I agree that each grade has to be well thought out. We need to consider why there were zeros, absences, etc. Each teacher needs to make every effort to understand their students, their situations, their abilities, and provide feedback to them and their parents that are accurate. We should be able to show parents and students both how we arrived at that grade through the use of either comments or checklists. Parents and students are more supportive of what we do and how we do it if we explain it to them and show work that supports our "grade."
Debb P. says...
ReplyDeleteIn reply to Heather:
I agree that it makes grading difficult when students are not coming in on a "level playing field." They have parents who are too busy with themselves to give a rat's tail. We then become their cheerleader, coach, and judge all in one. How do we get parents educated as to their responsibility? When do they take up the oath to have "no child left behind?" Grades do need to be thought out according to a student's ability to cope in their situation as well in the classroom. We may have to provide much further scaffolding and support for these students to learn.
I think that everyone reading about the parachute case pretty much agrees that student 3 would be the one to go to at the end of the class for their parachute packer. What we’re really looking at is that all of the students would receive the grade of “C” because their average work for the class is that line that they fall a little above, a little below, and if we’re looking at grades for our packers, then that good average work should stand us in good stead. What the graph shows of student three is that they mastered the concept of packing, and learned how to use all of the tricks at their disposal (learned in the class, but also elsewhere) to do the job right every time. Some of these “tricks” wouldn’t be graded for the class at all, as they are not really part of the class. So maybe what we really should be looking for is the process of learning and mastery, as evidenced by the rising line at the end of the class time, and have grades reflect that instead of how many points were garnered over the course of the class.
ReplyDeleteResponse to K. Koenig: I think she’s getting to the point of homework: Maybe it should be practice, not part of the work that you didn’t get to in class, and why grade it? Should we tell the students “this is for you, to help you master the concepts. If you don’t want to do it, that’s up to you, but you’ll be missing out on how to help yourself get this concept into your heads and figure out how to know what you’re doing. Help yourselves out and do some reflecting on the work introduced in class today.
Neil’s #4: A lot of what I’m hearing is that low level factual regurgitation is not what we’re after, but then everyone agrees that without a healthy notion of “the basics” (some of which are those same facts) for any given class, students will not do well on higher level concepts of the class. “Handing things in” is part of responsibility that we’re trying to instill in our students, but I’m not sure that grading responsibility gives a clear idea of grades for the actual concepts we’re teaching. It is part of the student’s arsenal to help achieve content in the class, and students lacking the responsibility to cover these basic necessities will probably result in not achieving the most desired results, and should be considered in this light.
Response to Kari and others: Well, it’s sort of refreshing to hear younger folk agree with me that the responsibility of students, parents, and society in general is on the downturn. I thought it was just me thinking “it’s not the same as it was twenty years ago”, which is probably what teachers of that era were thinking about their students. But that’s how things go on, ever changing, and we (me) need to adapt and change along with it so that we can reach the students that really are not the same as we were twenty years ago. But it’s hard………
Debb P. says...
ReplyDeleteIn response to Julie,
I agree that instrinsic motivation is best. However, I remember a few years ago I had a student that I knew was capable of passing a multiplication timed test. I tried to motivate him with words of praise and "I know you can do it!" Nothing seemed to work. After quite a while of trying and not passing, I decided to put the "carrot" out there. One day I announced that I was giving out a prize from the prize box for all who passed that day. Amazingly, this student passed with a lot of time left on the clock. When he went to get in the prize box, I chatted with him. I congratulated him and said, "I knew you could do it." He told me that he knew all along he could do it, but until today he had no "reason" to do it. In my classroom, I do not reward extrinsically for many things. However, I continue to reward students for passing these timed tests. I was so taken back by this student's comment, I thought I should do something to make sure there is a "reason" for some of them to try to pass. Usually, I find praise and appreciation either publicly or privately goes a long way towards a student getting motivated to keep trying to do their best.
It seems in Iowa we have fluctuated all over the place with curriculum,standards, and grades. A good example would be our year working with
ReplyDeletePreston and mapping. In the end, we couldn't even figure out what English standards to use. All that fuss and bother and Neil mentioned software for mapping that most schools use.
I know in other states, curriculum gurus (sp?) outline what is to be taught, what expectations are needed, and how to grade. Wouldn't that be
nice???? I keep thinking of Ron Clark and his claim to raise standardized test scores. His curriculum evolved around the test; his faith based on a belief that whatever was tested was what needed to be learned. Did Ron Clark use grades?
It seems in Iowa we have fluctuated all over the place with curriculum, standards, and grades. A good example would be our year working with
ReplyDeletePreston and mapping. In the end, we couldn't even figure out what English standards to use. All that fuss and bother and Neil mentioned software for mapping that most schools use.
I know in other states, curriculum gurus (sp?) outline what is to be taught, what expectations are needed, and how to grade. Wouldn't that be
nice???? I keep thinking of Ron Clark and his claim to raise standardized test scores. His curriculum evolved around the test; his faith based on a belief that whatever was tested was what needed to be learned. Did Ron Clark use grades? Personally, I have always struggled with grades. I know parents will want them at conferences. But I subscribe to the "kinder, gentler" side of education, and grades often seemed harsh.
Ah, Schrute dollars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59KY7ek8Rk). Do they mean gold slips?? Ten/fifteen years ago, the middle school trained and bought into "assertive discipline" big time. I ran the Gold Slip Store. It was fun and crazy. And it worked for a few years. It took the Diercks twins to kill it off!! Middle Schoolers have always loved a reward or prize. It's just that the prize has to be newer, bigger, more exciting that the last one they got.
ReplyDeleteI am also concerned about ITBS scores as is Keri. In fact the past few years have left me spinning: standards/benchmarks, rigor/relevance, increased reading scores, to grade or not to grade.
ReplyDeleteFinally, I want everyone to know that I did wait until the last night to do my assignment (I work best under pressure). So I had my comments and observations ready to go last night, and I COULD NOT get my posts to go. Was anyone else frustrated?
ReplyDeleteFinally I am able to get in.
ReplyDeleteCase Study 1: It's unclear the reason why the student missed the test. Whether he/she just didn't want to make up the test or is the teacher just being difficult. But by looking at the student's test scores it is obvious that he/she is a good student. So I can't imagine them not wanting to make up the test. The teacher should have tracked their student down to make him/her accountable for making up missed work. I realize this be more difficult to do in a larger school district where you would be teaching many more students. The student should not have earned a 0 for a test that was worth so many points. Personally I wouldn't give a grade on the report card until the test was completed. I would say it wasn't a fair reflection of this student's achievement level. Bottom line, all work needs to be made up, including tests. The way I look at it is perhaps this teacher wasn't doing there jo
Regarding Darla's #3: hit the nail on the head.
ReplyDeleteI see similar problem in Physical Science (freshmen). We have occasional math integration where our science topic is math applicable. Often, this is an application of simple math. Stuff that none of us adults would flinch at. Half of the class gets it. Two or three can get it with a nudge. The other six get frusterated.
By skipping the math portions, I am saving myself from the situation, but not serving half the class who should be creatively using math outside of the math room. Not helping the two who need help with math, and not helping the six who could use the basic math workout.
It's a dilema. We choose our battles.
Comment to drsiever@netins.net
ReplyDeleteI didn't see the results of changing grading scale right away. Students didn't master the required skills any better than before (I still had maybe only 4 As over 26 student and I still had few Fs), but...
Most of the tests involve story problems and if student struggles with reading then he/she will struggle with the tests as well. This leads to very low grades (I have a few issues with the assessments that go with books I use in middle school)
My grading scale is much harder then of other teachers in the school. If I use my grading - student fails and if I use the scale of others - student passes. How is it fair? I chose the one that benefits many students.
I agree with you about standards/guide lines for each grade level. I want to know what I must teach kids and in which sequence to meet standards. There is so much about math to teach that I can not decide myself what is more important (maybe it is my lack of experience speaking). When I started my job I was given list of books order in which to teach. I do not find some standards from our old curriculum in these books. And they do not correspond well to the AEA middle school curriculum.